// This is a machine generated transcript. Please report any transcription errors to will-help@illinois.edu.

[00:00:00]
Brian Mackey: Today on the 21st show, James McBride is a man of many talents — musician, screenwriter, award-winning author. You might know his latest novel, "The Heaven and Earth Grocery Store," which was a huge bestseller. He's also written the memoir "The Color of Water" about growing up in Brooklyn as one of 12 Black children raised by a white Jewish mother. McBride is giving a talk in central Illinois later this week, but he'll be with us in advance of that. I'm Brian Mackey with James McBride for the hour today on the 21st show, which is a production of Illinois Public Media, airing on WILL [Urbana], WUIS in Springfield, WNIJ in Rockford DeKalb, WVIK in the Quad Cities, WSIU in Carbondale, and Tri-States Public Radio in Macomb, Galesburg, and Keokuk, Iowa. But first, news.

From Illinois Public Media, this is the 21st show. I'm Brian Mackey. And my guest today is the writer and musician James McBride. He first came to literary prominence in the 1990s for his memoir, "The Color of Water: A Black Man's Tribute to His White Mother." Today, the book is considered a classic and it's on reading lists in schools around the country. Many of his other books are novels, including "The Good Lord Bird," which won the National Book Award, "Deacon King Kong," and most recently, "The Heaven and Earth Grocery Store." He's also adapted his work and written new work for film and television, including "Miracle at St. Anna" and "Red Hook Summer," both of which were collaborations with Spike Lee, and "The Good Lord Bird," again with the actor Ethan Hawke. Beyond his writing life, McBride is also a musician and composer. He plays saxophone and has written for everyone from Anita Baker and Grover Washington Jr. to the PBS kids show "Barney and Friends." This week, McBride is traveling to central Illinois to give a talk at the Champaign Public Library. It's part of the Great Authors at the Library series. We have information about that on our website right now, twentyfirstshow.org. With that, James McBride, I'm so happy to be speaking with you today. Welcome to the 21st show.

[00:02:22]
James McBride: Well, thank you very much. Nice to be on the 21st show. It's better than being on the 22nd show.

[00:02:29]
Brian Mackey: Yes, and we have some new listeners this week on a new station that joined us. So perhaps I should explain to them, as I do from time to time, we're named for the 21st state, Illinois being the 21st state to join the union. So happy to have you, listeners. You can join us from across the 21st state at 800-222-9455. That's 800-222-9455. All right, I wanna start at the beginning, in your childhood. You've described being poor but never deprived. How did that look day to day?

[00:03:03]
James McBride: Well, I mean, uh, I, you know, I grew up with 11 siblings. There were 12 of us, so there was always something to do in my house. Uh, we had a piano and, you know, we had books and we weren't allowed to watch TV — we only could watch TV on Sunday — uh, and so we didn't. And we were in New York, you know, when we're in a big city where, you know, if you just walked out into the street there was something going on. Uh, you know, we went to public school, and public schools had good things for us to do. We had music and dance and, and, uh, you know, I lived in a sort of — I lived at a time when, when, you know, knowledge was important and books were important, the library was important. These things were part of my life. So, you know, we didn't have a lot of food. I mean, a box of Cheerios would not last long in my house, I could tell you that much. We had a lot of love and we, you know, we managed to, uh, you know, my mother was, was very, uh, very creative when it came to raising kids.

[00:04:08]
Brian Mackey: You've described sharing everything with your brothers and sisters, you know, box of Cheerios, musical instruments, even toothbrushes. Do you still see the effects of those patterns in your life today?

[00:04:22]
James McBride: Well, you know, my kids are grown and, uh, but I have a granddaughter who visited me recently and it was so much fun because the house was a mess. And we were playing piano and playing Ray Charles and just, you know, it was just great funky fun. Uh, yeah, I mean, I, you know, my siblings and I are pretty close. You know, three of them had died in recent years. Two died, uh, this year. But we support each other. Yeah, well, you know, I mean, I, that, those were hard hits, but we support each other and we love each other. I mean, actually, I'm sick of my brothers and sisters. They make me sick, man. I'm tired of them. But, you know, they're sick of me too. We, you know, we love each other. We, we don't have a lot of — it's not one of these kind of families where like the guy doesn't talk to the sister in 10 years and all that kind of stuff, you know. Like, you know, I loaned my sister $50 one time. This is going back some time, but I loaned the $50 and I said to her, I said, where's my $50? And she said, I'm gonna pray for you. I'm gonna pray for you. I said, you pray all you want. Can I have my $50? You know, but that's the kind of family we are, you know, we still are pretty close. Family love is important. Uh, it's worth sacrificing for.

[00:05:42]
Brian Mackey: Yeah. Well, of course, your mother is the subject of your breakout memoir. Can you give us a brief sketch of her life and especially the, you know, the secret of her heritage that you write about?

[00:05:53]
James McBride: Well, my mother was, uh, she was born in Poland. She was the daughter of an Orthodox Jewish rabbi — or a guy who claimed to be a rabbi. She came over here when she was 2 years old with her mother and her brother. Uh, she lived in Suffolk, Virginia, in the '30s and the early '40s when, you know, anti-Semitism was pretty strong down there. Uh, she came to New York, she married my father in 1941, and she was disowned by her family. They sat shiva for her, which is a Jewish mourning ritual, as though she had died. And so she had that — well, I mean, look, that generation of Jews who came to New York and to America from Europe, they had a specific way of living. And so, you know, marrying outside of the faith to a — a — a, you know, a gentile was just — it was out of bounds. It would be the equivalent of — I don't even know what the equivalent is now these days 'cause people get so upset about all this kind of stuff — but it was out of bounds. And so they, the easiest and most facile and logical thing to do for them was to just consider her as dead, which, you know, was painful for her and painful for them as well, frankly. But she ended up marrying my father and she converted to Christianity and she lived — you know, she was a very religious woman. She lived a very, very good and full life. Uh, so, and I didn't know much about this. I didn't know anything about this until I became a grown man. So I went back to look into it, I found out all of this stuff. And I was a young man when I started researching "The Color of Water" and, and you know, it changed me and it made me appreciate aspects of my history that I hadn't been aware of before. But it also has allowed me to mature into the kind of man who realizes that if you don't like someone based on their religion, it's because you don't know who you are. Because every religion is pretty much the same. The best aspects of all religions are pretty much the same. And so, you know, I was raised Christian and I still am a Christian. I still go to church, but I don't believe that my religion is any better than anyone else's. I, I just don't — I don't even have these kinds of conversations. It's just a waste of time.

Uh, so, but that was her story. And she raised — my father died when I was — when my mother was pregnant with me. She had seven children and she was pregnant with me and my father died. She went back to her family for help. She went to see one of her aunts and her aunt slammed the door in her face. She then remarried and married my stepfather, who's also Black, and had four more kids with him, and then he died when I was 14. So a lot of the, you know, the rules and regulations and factors of life were put in place by her and by my father and stepfather, but they were enforced by her. She was the center of the universe. And she did a really good job. She sent us all to college and in most cases graduate school. Um, we weren't — we never felt like we were, you know, staggering through life trying to decide between eating a matzo ball or a piece of fried chicken. I mean, we just were — you know, we were a happy family. We were aware that the racial disparities in America existed, but we always got along with people and, uh, and we were taught to respect people. So, uh, you know, I see how the mixed-race thing plays out these days in America. And I'm happy on one hand to see that it has become much more accepted and acceptable. I'm not so pleased with some of the other nonsense that, that, uh, that is going on about it, but I'm pretty sure that God has, you know, has a way of evening out and straightening out a lot of this nonsense. And I don't pay too much attention to it. I know that I would not have been so successful had it not been for my mother. And the principles that she placed in her children's souls — some of those principles were based on Judaism, some were based on Christianity, but all were based on the sense of propriety and decency and respect for others.

[00:10:32]
Brian Mackey: When you say some of the nonsense going on today, I wonder what you mean by that.

[00:10:36]
James McBride: Oh, come on, I mean, you know, we live in an age if you cut somebody off on the road, they might pull out a gun and, you know, just drop the hammer on it and, you know, in your dream and every dream you ever had. And also the whole business of, you know, I mean, mixed race, gender change, you know, history, what history to teach — you know, we could start, where do we begin? The truth is that, you know, a lot of this stuff is just clickbait and waste of time. I don't really, I'm not that plugged into it because I don't have the internet thing all the way through — like I don't have, you know, Facebook or whatever. You know, I don't pay attention to that. I read books and read the paper. Um, but I'm convinced that Americans are generally very decent people and very funny people. And uh, I, I'm pretty sure that — I mean, I'll be, I'm 69 years old. I'm pretty sure that, you know, at some point we're going to, you know, shake the blanket loose and get back to where we belong on the whole business of this race and class, because it's happened in my lifetime. Um, my mother raised all these kids and they all did well. Uh, and they all became teachers and, you know, all kinds of professions — doctors — and they spread, you know, the goodness that she taught them. Listen, nobody — you know, when an airplane crashes and 600 people die, they go, oh my God, 600 people died. But you know, 3,000 or 4,000 people are probably dying today in automobile accidents, and we don't pay attention to that. We pay attention to the spectacular. But the good moves slowly. It moves like a river, it's strong. And it's always there, and so you just have to go find it and you have to believe it's there.

[00:12:42]
Brian Mackey: You know, you mentioned her — she basically lived as a light-skinned Black woman. That's what she would say when she wasn't brushing off questions about her origins when you were a kid. Um, you know, and we have these examples today in this social media and public shaming era of people identifying with, you know, heritage that maybe they did not — you know, they were not born into, right? There was recently a woman who claimed to be Palestinian and in fact, her ancestors were Jewish and Israeli. Um, I think of [Nkechi Diallo], who was born Rachel Dolezal, right, who lost her job and resigned from a local NAACP chapter. Um, you know, as the son of a white woman who spent her adult life, I guess, passing as Black, how do you process those stories and the idea that these are people to be shamed in modern times?

[00:13:32]
James McBride: Well, I mean, you're infusing politics into something that really has to do with a person who's living in pain and they're trying to do the right thing. I mean, I don't have any problems with these people, you know, claiming they're this or that. They can be whoever they want. It's not hurting me. How's it hurting me? I mean, if someone who's white claims they're Black and they're not really Black, what difference does it make if they love somebody? If they're helping somebody, I don't care if an orangutan walks into the room. If I'm starving and I need a banana, and an orangutan walks into the room and offers me the banana — am I going to say, and the orangutan says, you know, I'm not, I'm really a zebra — I'm still going to take the banana. What difference does it make? I, I don't — I mean, it's a tough question because the people who are doing this, I don't know — I very rarely get in deep into these stories, but my general feeling is that somebody, anyone who does this is in a lot of pain. And someone who's in a lot of pain deserves understanding. They don't deserve to be, uh, kicked around or made fun of.

In terms of my mother, the easiest thing for her to do — in the world that we lived in, and the world we lived in was quite different than it is now — we'd get on the subway and people would say, look at her with all those [n-words], and they would just say it right out in front of her face, and she would just ignore it because that's the world we lived in. She'd just say, I'm a light-skinned Black person. Did you do your homework? Did you go to church, you're going to church. She didn't have — there was no room for debate about it. And some of that was, you know, difficult to deal with as a child. But you knew that the woman loved you. And you knew that she wanted what was best for you. And it was easier for her to pretend to be a Black person for her children than to say, I'm a white Jewish woman from Poland and my father was a mess and he, you know, he did horrible things to me. She didn't want us to have that kind of pain, so she just adopted, uh, a motif that would get the song to the end.

As a composer of music, I remember talking to Johnny Mandel one time — he's a great arranger. And we were on the elevator talking about music and history of music. Johnny Mandel, just so your listeners know, was a white guy — not that it mattered, but you know, he played with the Count Basie band. He knew all about Black music because he arranged it and wrote it so brilliantly. He used to say, how do you get to the end of the song — you get stuck, you have to come up with something to get to the end. So in my mother's case, she just — she came up with something to get us to the end, which was through college, through high school, through all the, you know, the difficulties in New York life, the drugs, the racism, all that stuff. And it worked. It worked in part because she didn't really judge other people. And I think that's probably part of the problem when you're talking about someone who grew up Jewish or Israeli and who says they're Palestinian. I mean, as long as they're trying to do the right thing, I don't care what they say they are. Are they trying to do the right thing, and what's the deeper issue?

Um, as a writer —

[00:16:42]
Brian Mackey: Yeah, I'm gonna — I'm gonna ask you, uh, sorry to interrupt you. I'm gonna ask you to pause there. We're on a fixed clock on our program and we need to take a break. We're gonna continue with the writer and musician James McBride when we return. If you are in central Illinois, he's going to be at the Champaign Public Library this week, part of the Great Authors at the Library series. You can find out more about that on our website, twentyfirstshow.org. We will continue after a short break. Please stay with us.

It's the 21st show. I'm Brian Mackey. We're speaking with James McBride, the musician, author, screenwriter, journalist, about his life and his work and everything in between. Uh, he's perhaps best known for his, uh, memoir, "The Color of Water." Uh, other notable books include "The Good Lord Bird," "Deacon King Kong," "Song Yet Sung," "The Heaven and Earth Grocery Store." If you're in the Champaign-Urbana area, he's gonna be giving a talk at the Champaign Public Library Thursday evening, and we'll have more information on that at our website, twentyfirstshow.org. If you want to join us today, 800-222-9455 is the number. 800-222-9455. All right, before the break, we were hearing uh one of the tracks of your 2003 album, "The Process, Volume One," called "Deserting the Boogeyman." When did you first think you wanted to make music your career, your life's work, or at least enough to study it in college?

[00:18:39]
James McBride: Um, well, you know, I grew up in church — a little Baptist church — and you know, I, that music, you know, from the '50s, mostly '50s and '60s, that music was just so magnetic. It was so sweet. Uh, and so as a child I grew up, you know, listening to that every Sunday and listening to jazz at home and gospel. We used to listen to a group called the Davis Sisters quite a bit. And then Mahalia Jackson and all of, a lot of the great ones that came out of Chicago. Uh, and so that really led to my life as a young musician. I went to Europe with a band when I was 17 and then went to Oberlin and I, uh, I have a connection to Illinois through Oberlin, actually — there's a guy named Fred Nelson who was Aretha Franklin's conductor till she died. He was a good friend of mine. We played together at school. He's a fantastic — he's got perfect pitch. He was — he's a genius, really. Uh, so, you know, I've had a lot of — and I went to visit his church too, uh, called — it was called the First Church of Deliverance in Chicago back in the '70s, and man, that was something else, man. I contracted Aretha Franklin's last three dates here on the East Coast. I found the local musicians to play with her because Fred wanted some — he said Aretha, you know, Aretha was real fussy about who played, you know, her music. So I found some players and, so I've always had a, you know, a real connection to music, and even as a writer I always left time during the day to do some music, to practice or to work on something musical. Music was my first love, and, uh, writing just kind of — I don't know, it just kind of — after I got out, I went to Oberlin, after I got out of school I got into Columbia Journalism School, and so I got a master's in journalism and I worked as a journalist for nine years. So that's how — yeah, but music was always a big part of my life.

[00:20:45]
Brian Mackey: Yeah. Why did you divert into journalism? And I mean, Columbia, that's a great school for journalism and, and you did great work, but I mean, did it feel like you were missing out on the music part or did you have to leave that behind for some reason?

[00:21:00]
James McBride: That's a good question. Well, I kind of felt like a fraud when I was at Columbia because, you know, I was with some really smart people, man. I mean, these people, they had written for their college paper or they had been professional journalists and, you know, every Monday they have like these really smart people come to talk to the school, and I was playing with a salsa band in the South Bronx at the time, you know, to make extra money. So I was always exhausted when I got to school because I'd get back home at 5 in the morning, you know. But I like to write. I got into journalism really because of Nelson Mandela. When I was in college, it was a big move to, uh, to, uh, against the apartheid movement. And I read about Nelson Mandela and I was inspired by his life and I wanted to change the world, and I thought I would do that by becoming a journalist. Well, you see how that worked out, but anyway. It was, you know, it was a — it taught me a lot, you know. It taught me how to write tight. It taught me how to find stories, taught me how to, uh, see things clearly. And, uh, and journalists were lots of fun to be around. That's the one thing I miss about journalism. I worked at the Wilmington News Journal, at the Boston Globe, at the Washington Post, and People magazine, and every one of those places had really interesting, really dedicated people who were — who knew a lot about — who knew a little about a lot, but didn't know a lot about one thing. And

[00:22:39]
Brian Mackey: The fox and the hedgehog, they say, right?

[00:22:42]
James McBride: But it was cool. I, you know, I enjoyed it, but it wasn't creative enough for me. So I quit when I was close to 30, I guess. I was at the Washington Post. I was working in what was then the style section, the feature section. I quit and moved back to New York and then I just played music, you know. Did that for about nine years or so, uh, and then during that time I started writing and I wrote "The Color of Water."

[00:23:10]
Brian Mackey: You also — and I'm a little unclear on the timeline here — but you also started a music program in the housing project and, and I guess even the church where you grew up. How did that come about?

[00:23:23]
James McBride: Well, in 2010, my mother died. And six months later my then-wife divorced me and, and then I, you know, I was broke because that's what happens in divorce — what happened in my case — and so I just said to myself, I need to get myself together, get right with God. So I returned to the church after being pretty much absent, other than for, you know, major events — Easter, Christmas, etc. And so I went back to the church that — my father was a minister and he and my mother started a small Baptist church in Brooklyn that still exists to this day. So I went back to church and they needed an organist and uh I played piano well enough to play in church, but we couldn't find anybody. Because a lot of these church organists — the jive, man. In fact, this is a tip for your listeners: if you're looking for an organist for your church and you get somebody on the phone, and then when he hangs up he says "have a blessed day," forget it. That ain't the guy. So I said, why are we looking all over the place for organists? We got all these kids walking around the project. Let's just train one of our own. So I started a music program in the church. I ran it from about 2012 to COVID. And we taught organ, piano — we taught piano, bass, and drums. I had like three teachers. I had 23 students. And it was all free. And it lasted until COVID. COVID came and destroyed the program, really. But I, I still work for my church. I basically now I'm just kind of like the sexton. I just, you know, I fix the garden. I do — you know, I talk to the plumber. I just do — I just do hands-on work. Running a music program — the administrative part was really tough. And dig this, man, you know, you would think that people from the projects don't have the same kind of problems that middle-class people have. Not true. You know, they come and say, oh, little Johnny practiced — he didn't practice at all. You could tell because as soon as he sits down at the piano, he's playing the same thing he played the week before and the week before that. And taking their kids to the movies and giving them too much and giving them cell phones and tennis shoes — all that stuff happens in the projects too. Uh, you know, there's a disconnect between what we think our children should have and what they really need. What they really need is education. They need less phones, less cell phones, less TV — they need more books, they need more discipline, and they need the ability to travel and see the world.

[00:26:03]
Brian Mackey: You've described it as a struggle, right? Getting these kids, keeping them engaged. And you said that kind of struggle is important for a writer. And you know, in this same interview I was reading, you said you think it's a mistake for a writer to sit around coffee shops musing about — not actually what you said, but we're gonna stay safe for the radio. So, talk to me about that idea. How does this struggle — how does the work, right? Trying to get these kids — uh, you know, or even if it's just, you know, keeping up with the church garden and making sure the plumbing is operating. How does that make its way into your writing life?

[00:26:41]
James McBride: Well, you can't write anything if you're sitting around reading the internet all the time or reading books by other writers. How can you write about experience if you don't have any? I mean, I, you know, the best days of my week are Saturdays and some Sundays when I'm in the projects, you know, working in the garden, watching these knucklehead — I mean, I, it's just something about being around people is important for writers, and not around other writers. Because when you get around other writers, they go, what did you read? Oh, I didn't like the book. As soon as you get into that, it's time for me to walk out the room. Anybody who writes a book, good for them. I mean, you know, 'cause writing books is hard. So I think, you know, when you walk into a Starbucks and you see people sitting there writing novels — well, I don't know. I think you'd be better off helping somebody build a house. I think you get more stuff, you get more scene, you get more — you get the sinew, the texture of a nail driving into wood. You know, like I like to fix old cars, you know. I like to talk to these guys who have these old cars. I used to have one, then I got married, I had to get rid of it, and now I don't want one, but I used to. But I still enjoy listening to them talk about how they threw in a carburetor and, you know, the transmission is not as good — the new ones or the old ones — just the nuts and bolts of life is where writers live. So if you're gonna, you know, learn about the dictionary of living, then you better go where they make the dictionary.

[00:28:25]
Brian Mackey: Yeah, you've said you don't follow the careers of other writers and even described it as working with blinders on. Is that something you had to learn or is this sort of your natural disposition?

[00:28:37]
James McBride: I think music gives you some of that. Because you know in music you know that there's always somebody who can play better than you. But there's nobody that can be you better than you. And uh, so I think music, especially jazz — you know, you can listen to someone playing jazz and you say, that's the guy, I know who that is, I can just tell by the way they sound. So I think I got that from music, and also from seeing how my mother constantly improvised in her life. You know, because she didn't have enough to, to live — she would just figure out, you know, if your lunch — if you had a gym class, you brought it in a bag, a paper bag, you brought your whatever it was for gym, you brought it in a paper bag. If she had a sandwich to give you, which she often didn't, but if she did, she'd put it in an old wrapper from the bread where the bread came in. The milk container was used to contain rice, and you put tape over the top of it and a baby could shake it and that was a rattle. And uh, so you just learn to use what's there, and the improvisational quality of that gives you a voice. And if you're lucky you can translate that voice into your work, whatever that work is.

[00:29:55]
Brian Mackey: Well, let's talk about your process, if we may. How do you know when it's time to get started on a book? How does that come about?

[00:30:04]
James McBride: Well, usually I look at my bank account first and then, uh, I don't know. I mean, uh, I'm always looking for stuff, you know, I'm always talking to people, figuring out — you know, I'm always looking for how things connect. In novels that are good novels, everything connects. So my goal is to find things that connect and find stories that make people feel good about being alive. 'Cause I'm one of those people who — I just can't dwell in the negativity of life all the time. I just don't see the point in putting — like throwing anger onto the page, that we're putting in, you know, like nasty stuff into a book 'cause you can't say it, man, come on. I just ain't one of them kinds of guys, man. So I'm always looking for things that will illuminate someone else's story so that people who are living on the other side of the fence realize that the grass is not really greener on the other side. One of the advantages of growing up with a white mother is you realize that white people certainly ain't perfect, and they ain't got everything they supposedly have. So when you have that realization, it's a great advantage 'cause you realize that people waste time grabbing for things that don't exist. Does that make sense?

[00:31:28]
Brian Mackey: It does make sense, absolutely. Um, let's go to the phones. I mentioned people can join us today — 800-222-9455. We have Nancy calling from northern Illinois. Nancy, thank you for calling in.

[00:31:44]
Speaker 2: Good morning. How are you today?

[00:31:48]
Brian Mackey: I'm well, Nancy, thanks. You're on with James McBride. What do you wanna talk to him or ask him about?

[00:31:54]
Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, Mr. McBride, you sound so very knowledgeable and I'm so impressed with your knowledge. And I wanted to say, how in the heck did you get to meet Aretha Franklin? When you were — were you a producer with her?

[00:32:10]
James McBride: No, no, no. There's a guy named Dr. Fred Nelson who's in Chicago. I'm sure anyone in Chicago who knows music knows who he is. He was her conductor. And when they were coming to the East Coast to play in Philly and New York, Fred was my classmate at school. And he called me and he said, we need 10 or 12 musicians — horn players, keyboard player, whatever — a couple to supplement Aretha's, you know, solid rhythm section. And we want some good players because, you know, it's Aretha Franklin. So I just found the contract — got the players — and we, you know, she did the concert. I didn't play, by the way, because I was scared. I didn't want Aretha yelling at me, man. I was like — but, but, um, but I saw her. I didn't talk to her. I saw her in the dressing room, but I didn't bother her. She, you know, I've been — you know, people who are famous don't want to be bothered. But it was great. I mean, she was great, you know. The concert she did in Philly was probably the best — he said it was the best concert she'd done in a long time, and she only did two or three after that. She was fantastic, man. I mean, Illinois has produced some really great — you know, it's a magnet for so many talented people. So yeah, but I didn't meet Aretha technically. But here's the thing — like when you meet someone, what does that mean? Like, you know, I met a lot of famous people, you know, and then you say, well, what was he like? What was she? Well, they were very nice. Yeah, well, if you ask my ex-wife about me, she'll tell you a whole different story.

[00:33:45]
Brian Mackey: All right. Let's take another break. We are speaking with James McBride, who is an author and a musician and a screenwriter. He's, uh, turned his books and written also for television, uh, with Spike Lee, for example. Um, and as you heard earlier, he worked as a journalist for many years. If you want to join us today, 800-222-9455 is the number. Mr. McBride is gonna be at the Champaign Public Library, uh, later this week. More information about that on our website. We will continue this conversation after a short break. You're listening to the 21st show. This is more from his 2003 album, "The Process" — called "If Not Now, When?"

[MUSIC: If Not Now, When? - James McBride]

This is the 21st show. I'm Brian Mackey. We are speaking with James McBride for the hour today. He's an author and a musician, and he's gonna be in Champaign this Thursday, part of the Great Authors at the Library series. Uh, that's in the evening on Thursday. More information at our website, twentyfirstshow.org. If you wanna join us for the rest of the hour, 800-222-9455 is the number. 800-222-9455. So, uh, about 10 years ago, you're in the White House, you're getting a National Humanities Medal draped around your neck by President Barack Obama. It was for, quote, "humanizing the complexities of discussing race in America." I've seen you said that you found that both an honor and stressful. Can you talk about that experience?

[00:35:57]
James McBride: Well, I mean, uh, you know, uh, when you go to meet the president, uh, you know, uh, it's a big deal, you know. [Barry] — the guy, you know who was there? [Barry] Gordy, the guy from Motown.

[00:36:12]
Brian Mackey: Did I see that Wynton Marsalis was there as well?

[00:36:15]
James McBride: No, no, Wynton got it, but I don't think Wynton showed up. I didn't — he, I don't know why, uh, but he, you know, he, uh, maybe he had a gig or something. But I don't care. I showed up and, uh, you know, it was cool. I mean, I mean, uh, and, uh, the guy who produced — Mel — gosh, I can't remember his name. Mel — Mel Brooks was there and he was really — he was delightful, man. He was — I didn't get a chance to talk to anybody really because, you know, it's sort of a big event. But, but, but dig this — like when he walks in, they had a band there, like, you know, uh, like the White House band, uh, bereft of many Black players, I might add, but they were good. And when Barack Obama walked in there, they struck up "Hail to the Chief," man, and that place just — boom. I was sitting next to Terry Gross from "Fresh Air." That was — and she was delightful. It was a — it was a — it was, I was very proud, it was a, you know, it was a nice moment for me. But you know, I mean, I've had my 15 minutes and, and I was very honored to receive that award from President Obama. I thought he was — I think a great deal of him, and I think a lot of us do. And uh, I like the principles that he tried to represent, and I hope that we — my hope and dream is that we get back to those as soon as possible. So it was great, you know, uh. You know, I mean, I'm a lucky guy. I got, you know, I got a chance to do a lot of stuff and, uh, you know, my job is to try to spread that around as much as I can without, you know, sounding too hokey about the whole bit.

[00:38:13]
Brian Mackey: Since Obama is a man of Illinois, I wanted to ask you, do you remember when you first heard his name, or first heard of him, or that he was, you know, sort of a rising figure?

[00:38:23]
James McBride: Well, yeah, yeah, I tell you — I first heard about him on the radio and they said that he won in Iowa. When I heard that, I said he's gonna win, because, you know, 'cause when people in Iowa — I don't know anything about Iowa, but I know about white people. And I can tell you that — and I don't want to insult none of your listeners or anything like that — but white people, you know, if they see you and they see you're decent, it's hard to make them hate you. They saw what he was like, and they liked him. And so that was it. They just — he became a human being. And, uh, and I said, well, he's gonna win. I said that to myself, I said he's gonna win because they see what kind of person he is. And uh, that's why I'm not — I mean, I'm concerned about America, but at bottom I'm convinced that our country is full of good and delightful people who ultimately make the right choices. So that was, you know, that's all I knew about him, and then he ran for president and, you know, he won. Uh, I remember at one point I wrote a letter to the Times about something that involved him. Uh, it might have been about that minister — that —

[00:39:39]
Brian Mackey: There was Jeremiah Wright, yes, the "GD America."

[00:39:43]
James McBride: I might — I think I wrote a letter about that and why, you know, why he shouldn't be indicted because of what that fellow was saying or something like that. But I didn't really get involved in too much. I don't get involved in politics too much, you know. I mean, it's a trick bag, you know, because — people forget, you know, today's headline is tomorrow's fish wrap. Just try to treat people well, you know, and understand that — look, the best thing you can do is to give people room to say, I made a mistake and I'm real sorry. And if you proceed that way, you live a much better life. So, uh, I didn't follow President Obama's career that closely, but I was very proud of what he managed to do, and I'm sure there's somebody else coming along that I'll be equally as proud of. I'd like to see women take a more prominent role in political life in America. And I think that's coming, and I think that's going to make this country that much better, that much more decent, that much more thoughtful.

[00:40:52]
Brian Mackey: You mentioned this idea of forgiving people, letting them, you know, make amends and move on, maybe. And, you know, on the one hand, America is known as the land of second chances, third chances, fourth chances maybe for some. And yet in this era — and I don't know if it's the phones or the social media, the internet or what it is — but it feels like there's a strain of not wanting to let people have those second chances. And I wonder, how do you think — is that something that's changed about us? How do you see that evolving?

[00:41:24]
James McBride: Well, I mean, people are hurt and they're hurting, you know, uh, and when people are hurt, they do things that they're sorry about later. You can't blame people for feeling the way they're feeling because money is so tight and things are so hard. Uh, you just have to give people room to operate, and you have to function. You have to accept the fact that society needs change, and you — meaning me, not you, but just me — you have to be willing to change yourself. I go through this all the time with my church. I said, you know, you're still giving chicken dinners, you know, 50 years — I mean, you think chicken dinners and fundraisers where you're having barbecues are gonna attract young people who can pick up the phone and see someone having sex in Paris right now? You think you're gonna draw them into the church? You have to be willing to change. So you can't create mythologies of the past and expect them to work for the problems of the present. You have to deal with the present.

I have a lot of friends whose politics I disagree with vehemently. But a lot of those friends are the same ones I can call at 2 o'clock in the morning and say, I have a flat tire, come help me, and they'll come. So that's where we start. We start there. I don't hold them to account because their politics are different than mine. I say to myself, what can I do to improve their life a little bit so they'll think better of me and what I believe. And that's where it starts. I think America's capable of that. Uh, not only do I think — I know America is capable of that. So, you know, let it roll as it will. Listen, we're all going to suffer. We all have pain. Nothing goes the way you want it to go in life. But you have to be willing to say yes when the bell rings — yes, I will step into the ring and do what's necessary to make something better for someone else. If you're willing to do that, then you're the greatest soldier in the world.

[00:43:24]
Brian Mackey: I know you just said a few minutes ago that you don't like to talk too much about politics. So we can move on from this if you want. But, you know, I was thinking about you getting that medal from Barack Obama. That was 10 years ago last month, 10 years ago. It seems like it was just yesterday, and yet it's somehow at the same time it feels like a lifetime ago. And now we have, you know, Black officers being dismissed from the military seemingly for no reason other than their skin color. And we have, you know, historic markers being pulled out of national historic sites. Um, you know, the extent to which Obama ushered in a post-racial America was obviously overstated. I wonder how you have processed everything that we've been through in these last 10 years.

[00:44:11]
James McBride: I don't think of it in a big way. I say to myself, when I go to Red Hook, to the kids that I deal with, the kids I taught, the ones that are in college — what do they need now? What do they need to get them through college? What do we need to do to keep the doors of the church open? What do we need to do to make sure more community members come in here? What do we need to do to address the city about the problems in our housing project? I don't look at the bigger picture because the bigger picture — the smaller picture is just a microcosm of the bigger picture.

I understand a lot of people are hurting and suffering now. That's not new, especially for Black folks. Uh, what's new is the complicated morass of jive that these people — mostly men, but not all men — have managed to throw out in order to enrich themselves and make themselves temporarily famous while they get rich. But I'm also mindful that Mussolini — I studied World War II very closely when I wrote about Italy — and Mussolini, who was adored in Italy, ended up hung up by his heels in a gas station upside down, dead. So, you know, people at some point come to the realization of what is real and what is not, what hurts and what doesn't. And you just have to try to maintain the idea that you must be decent no matter what. Because if you lose that decency, you become just like the crooks who have one hand in your pocket and salute the American flag with the other. Which one are you gonna be? So you just have to be the good one and take it. You'll get your chance.

[00:45:52]
Brian Mackey: We're coming to the end of our time together. To the extent you're comfortable talking about it, what are you working on next?

[00:45:59]
James McBride: Well, I'm just finishing up a new book, which I was writing just before I talked to your producer and he played that corny music that I had to listen to while I was waiting. Uh, I mean, uh, if you need some better music for that, I could recommend some guys in Illinois, but anyway, um. Uh, I just finished — I'm just finishing up a new book. I'm on like the eighth rewrite of it and, uh, it's a novel, and, you know, I'll just leave it at that. But it's not a novel where people are angry and people are fighting and killing each other and all that other stuff, you know.

[00:46:34]
Brian Mackey: Eighth rewrite — is that common for your process?

[00:46:38]
James McBride: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I usually rewrite it several times before I hand it in. I handed it in and then the editor kicked it back to me three times. This is the fourth time I'm getting it back to him.

[00:46:49]
Brian Mackey: Ouch. Is that good?

[00:46:52]
James McBride: Well, I mean, look, I trust his judgment and, uh, it didn't come in as tight as my books normally do. But now it's tight. Now it's — now it's tight. Now it's just the question of not rewriting the life out of it. But I rewrite everything. Uh, and I tell young writers all the time, rewrite everything. Very important.

[00:47:15]
Brian Mackey: Every writer has a last book at some point, right? Some plan for it. They retire. Some have the decision made for them. How do you see your writing career going, right? Do you plan to retire at some point? Do you think you'll keep going until you drop the pen?

[00:47:31]
James McBride: That's a very good question. Well, I'm working on a musical now. I've been working for 30 years — called "Bobo." It's about a kid who wants an expensive pair of tennis shoes. It's a sung-through musical. And uh, once I'm done with that, I don't know, man, I mean. Uh, you know, I, I'd like to be a little more active in the community with kids again, and I'm, you know, I'm thinking about dreaming up a new way of getting kids into the church, uh, without, you know, without so much stress on myself. I'm not thinking of another book beyond this one though, 'cause it's just too hard, man.

[00:48:10]
Brian Mackey: James McBride is a mentor to young people. He's a musician. He's an author, a screenwriter. He's a journalist, and he's gonna be in Champaign this Thursday evening at the Champaign Public Library's Great Authors at the Library series. James McBride, thank you so much. What a pleasure. Appreciate your time.

[00:48:28]
James McBride: Thank you. Thank you very much.

[00:48:58]
Brian Mackey: That is it for us today. Before we go, I wanna once again welcome our new listeners on Tri-States Public Radio. As I said earlier, our name, the 21st show, comes from the fact that Illinois was the 21st state to join the union. We aim to be a place where Illinoisans and our neighbors come together to be informed, build connections, and seek understanding. And we're also committed to making a show with people, not just about them.

On Tri-States, we're airing a couple of hours after our live broadcast at 11, so we're not able to take your calls in real time, but we still love hearing what you think about our show, and you can do that — for example, by joining our texting group. We often solicit comments and questions before we go to air and we love sharing those. You can join that by sending the word "talk" — T-A-L-K — to 217-803-0730. Again, "talk" to 217-803-0730. And you can find out how to do that and every other way to connect with us — email, voicemail — it's all on our website, twentyfirstshow.org. We've got our archive of past programs there, years of conversations on politics, science, art, history, and more. And you can find links to subscribe to our podcast, or just look us up on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you listen.

The 21st show is a production of Illinois Public Media. I'm Brian Mackey. Thanks for listening. We'll talk with you again tomorrow.