A Vietnamese Woman’s Journey from War to Peace

January 09, 1990

An interview with Le Ly Hayslip, author of When Heaven and Earth Changed Places.

When Heaven and Earth Changed Places is a 1989 memoir by Le Ly Hayslip about her childhood during the Vietnam War, her escape to the United States, and her return to visit Vietnam 16 years later.

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A perspective that we really have not gotten at least there have been very few opportunities to get this kind of view of the war and that is from someone who was a child and a young man a young woman during the war. We will be speaking this morning with Laili Hayslip. She was born in Vietnam in a small village near denying called Keilah and for the first 12 years of her life she says she was a peasant girl for the next three. She says that she loved labored and fought for the Viet Cong against American and South Vietnamese soldiers but by the time she left her village in the village where she was born in

1965 her name was on a Viet Cong death list to the people of her village she explains. The South Vietnamese and the Americans were outsiders like others who had come before them. They came heavily armed. The Viet Cong fought just with what they had. They were not thought of as outsiders. They were thought of more as neighbors. Their greatest ammunition she explained was the goodwill of the people for the American soldiers who went to Vietnam. She says the war was a simple thing. It was a matter of democracy against communism she says. However the Vietnamese people there saw it rather differently. She says they knew a little about

democracy and even less about communism. For most of them she writes It was a fight for independence. Much like the American Revolution. I like to read you just a few more lines here from her prologue to introduce her and introduce the topic that we’ll be talking about. She writes in fact also about the fact that in 1986 after having spent 16 years in the United States and becoming a U.S. citizen she went back to Vietnam to find out what had happened to her family the place where she grew up. And we will talk about that as well. She says if you are an American G.I. about this book she says I ask you to

read the book and look into the heart of one you once called enemy. I have witnessed firsthand all that she went through. I will try to tell you who your enemy was and why almost everyone in the country you tried to help resented feared and misunderstood you. It was not your fault. It could have been. It could not have been otherwise. Long before you arrived my country had yielded to the terrible logic of war. What for you was normal a life of peace and plenty was for us. A hazy dream known only in our legends because we had to appease the allied forces by day and were terrorized by Viet Cong. At night we slept as little as you did. We

obeyed both sides and wound up pleasing neither We were people in the middle. We were what the war was all about now. Layli HAYZLETT makes her home in Southern California and she is the founder of a an organization that will also talk about the East most East meets West Foundation which is aimed at helping the survivors of the war by building clinics in rural villages in Vietnam. Her book a book that will be talking about a book about her life is entitled when heaven and earth changed places. A Vietnamese woman’s journey from war to peace. It’s published by

Doubleday and she had some help writing it from a fellow named Jay words who was an Air Guard pilot during the Vietnam War. He’s written and edited a variety of books and now makes his home in California also as we talk this morning with our guest Laili Hayslip. If you have questions you are certainly welcome to call in and talk with us. Our telephone number here locally is 3 3 3 9 4 5 5. And we have a toll free line also That’s 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5. Or if you like you can use just dial W I L L that’s what you’ll get the same result 9 4 5 5 WIO. Now

if you’d like to call him Ms Hayslip. Hello. Thanks very much for talking with us today.

Well thank you. We we appreciate you giving us some of your time. I I suppose you know one of one of the reactions I had to reading your book and it seems to me to be a very honest and straight forward account of some very very difficult times that you lived through one of the thoughts I had was some people couldn’t even probably bring themselves to talk about these things much less write about them in such an honest way knowing that probably a lot of people would be reading would be reading them. Was this difficult for you to do.

Well first of all I know nothing more than be honest and if I can not tell on this story why bother to waste my time to make up if something is not true. When I tell the do it is up to you and to others who are willing to accept me if I am or not. I knew all Vietnamese woman as well as men. It’s not easy for them to accept the thing that I described in the book that I am the one million of the Vietnamese girls I went to

and discuss the situation. If I would add playing at the best that I could how my life and my family situation have went through. Hopefully that people would understand what most of us went do in the countryside.

What is it that you would hope that Americans would be able to understand about the war.

From reading your experiences I have been over long enough to understand what the people harsh and my are. I hope that they can understand the Vietnamese people isn’t the way we live our life. We have nothing in the matter and people we have nothing. Again the Madigan to go to Vietnam and help the Vietnamese people. But again they say the war and debate

in my book. Hope that they upset the Vietnamese at will at all. Country in the way is supposed to be because last. I’m sure you understand this a lot. Automatic on a veteran at war with people. Look at Vietnam as the enemy. Look at Vietnam. Something is it’s not a good place to come to visit or talking about it. But truly and honesty is to all people. It’s somehow Loew’s Madigan and I want them to understand where we come from and what we will do. And yes we do want to be

friends and not enemies.

You were the youngest child of your parents and apparently when you were pretty pretty young or at least when you were young enough so that you were just started to walk. The French were there were fighting there so there was fighting when you were probably there was fighting when you were born. Yes. Can you tell me what what are some of your earliest memories of that fighting and was there fighting around the village where you live.

Yes. My very first memories in 19 I think 52 when my mother put me in the bamboo baskets carry me from the village to the CD often then and at what lay in the back is here I look up the open sky and the way he got around the role at home gun and on the noisy around us. And this village had been burning down and people crame in overplays.

That is when. Even though I’m just you know right now looking back that I will be testify with what’s going on around me but that is how I listen. I’m cameras in my brain. And when we come back from the CD to our village I crawl out of the bed. And our house was burned down at that time and that is the thing that I can not get out of my my system. Then when I say before I defy

when the South Vietnamese and Madigan come to our village it’s all over again. And from that up to now every time I see the houses on fire oh some noise it just so real to me. And I could not explain to you how easy is it. My my my.

How old were you.

Do you think when you understood what was going on as an adult would understand it when you move from the from my childhood way of seeing things to a more grown up way of seeing things that is I hope that my father passed away.

He you know when I was with him he talked to me many hours and many different things but I’m not quite on this them is. And I left. His pass away and what the love for him and with the what’s going on down to Vietnamese people to all relate to my mother’s and my brother and sick to my good mate and make me sit down and figure out what I’m going to do with my life now. And now as my father had gone. I have to find a way for me and my son and that is where I started

thinking about the war. Think about what is going to happen if I stay in Vietnam and what if all the Vietnamese people will do have is my father and my family what we’ll do. That is when I become to understand about the war.

You write about in the book that when you were born you read child you and your friends would play wargames probably like kids everywhere do you know when. No matter what the two sides are you know you have your good guys and your bad guys and that they’re When you were younger that it was that the South Vietnamese and the Viet Cong and that you know people would take sides and probably would pick up sticks and would run around and you know like American kids do or like probably kids a lot of places do that until you were 12. You had never really seen someone

who was in the Viet Cong and that that was the first time that you actually had any contact although I think you had a brother who was in the north who was with the Viet Cong. Tell me about about when you actually first came into contact with him with a real person who was in the Viet Cong.

When we talk about Viet Cong at that time it get like now we talk about somebody from the note the planet we never see of them. We get on many of them we miss them if like got. And oh somebody is really putting up with us. People read it look I have it all contrie and I thought that land and 5:04 are independent and you know what this gal is around at night and al-Fatah and know about them know who they are. But the children we don’t get to you know for them to kill us who they are.

And so as a good kid like now it’s a dream then to somebody come from another planet to come and visit us and on to one evening to come to the village. Q My take you and I was in my kitchen and looked at I know the man next door to my kitchen is there a word for it. And I look at him and I was so surprised that you know he gets a human. He get like us. But he you know we’re different uniform and he had been deaf and absent but from that on then you know we

did everything we could to support him because with so many good thing about him about the Viet Cong and then more and more the time when by own two young girls and boys from my village join in with them and fought with them again the Madigan and the South Vietnamese. But mostly we heard from them way before that like 1960.

We already know that they’re going to come but we get a win in you because you are the youngest and I guess because your father really didn’t like the idea of you leaving to as your brothers and sisters had left. You really stayed at home.

Yes. And the way my father and mother put CAPTUS me perhaps overreported dismay from both sides. And because of that I put my life more danger at them. They never know because the Viet Cong point of view did Ogam good boy go out there and do their duty to work. When they came and at night they up and do all they want. And good for them and things for them and do all the thing my fathers get. Tell them that I was ill and he make me to go to bed every night

and he’d go out there and to my place. Well he can’t sing he can’t ran fast enough. He couldn’t do things that I can do for them. Therefore they thought that my father and my family cooperated with a South Vietnamese Republican. That’s why we tried to hide from Vietcong. Then went to Vietnam. I’ll make them. And they asked us to go out and do the thing that we did the night before. My father also told them that I was very ill and he said I can do the work. Well they don’t want him there one young. So that they can teach. And then they can sometimes

rape Dick and beat them up would not feel too guilty. So my father put his life on a sides guy to save me. But all he does it do that more. They get angry at him. That put my life and their life into dangerous and that the situation is not easy on nighttime you have to live with Vietcong. You have to live with the South Vietnamese. We understand Viet Cong lamb which we understand where they come from and what that got to do. On a note when we don’t understand why the South Vietnamese the Pentagon is side

with the Madigan and bring on this grass city in all villages and that is why Ninety five percent of the village to help full Viet Cong and fly again. The South Vietnamese the path again.

It sounds as if though is still was year. Your inclination it and your allegiance would have been with the North Vietnamese because you saw that they were fighting for the independence of their country. But at the same time it seems that you and probably a lot of other villagers that weren’t really personally involved in fighting were very much caught in the middle between both sides and and probably suffered suffered some at the hands of both sides in the

Kobe Bryant matter some.

But most of the time we’ve been caught in the middle. We only want to leave it alone because not Vietnam and Hanoi capital of the North Saigon it’s the capital of the south. We’ll be in central Vietnam. We don’t really want to do anything with the South or the north. We get one to work in our land take our family take our ancestors and have children. That is all we want to do. How else will win the French well in Vietnam they put a proved very hot ship by the fighting an

beauty a nineteen fifty six fifty seven to which to 62. We had a very very peaceful time. We can look out the feel for 24 hours a day with our eyes corrupted by any gunshot. Oh bomb landed. Oh anything like that in our family we just thought it too. Stepped up and said a warship in our grave. You taken off and now you’re generous and start to marry and have family and our grandparents very

happy to see everything. Began to step in with their lives. Then in 1962 thought is no more. The new orders come into the village then say the trees get more in 64 and 65 and go on everything. It gets into worse and not bad at all. And that is when more and more people get only asking for please leave us alone. If you want a spy go somewhere out and fight and and we that one to our land and worship our ancestors. But

unfortunately a little red light that we can that’s help you with.

There’s a wonderful story in here about when you were young and you are working out in the fields where the first time that the Americans came into the area a helicopter came and you were standing up there and apparently were so sort of either scared or just surprised because you’d never seen anything like that and probably I would guess never seeing an American before you’d just sort of stood there and the helicopter landed and someone jumped out and just kind of looked around and then they left and it ended up that you were hailed as a hero because you stood your

ground in the face of the Americans when the real case was that you were probably just too scared to move.

Yes. My village is it’s a very high ground. It’s nothing but just Sam. When guys you know go out to work in a rice patty is much. You can move very fast. And when the helicopter lands of course the land dry on the sand. But when I was in a month. And at that time I was so surprised that the beautiful thing it gets planned very smoothly and I love the noise and rocked the Windy of course but it just so surprise and so scary and so sad. AP seeing is the same

time. And I just stood there and that is the storm that ran to the helicopter or the rent a ways from the helicopter and I could do neither one. So I just stood there. And when they did it Jainas they up out from the helicopter. I think that right now my children will think if if you have all landed you know something. Step out from the you of all that is how I met you at that time. And he is tall good looking man coming out from that crane helicopter. And I just

watched him and you know it just does it feel like a dream. It’s coming in while you are in bed or something and then feel momma. The helicopter took off and I just stand there and keep on looking until to disappear. But because the villagers thought that I’m very tough that student they’re not afraid of dying and are not afraid of. They they’re afraid of death. That got the top off my head. That is what everybody thought. How come I’m not runaway. And so because of that the thing that I love craved it do and still do. But I have no you know I’m just so scared.

And what is what is sort of ironic is that in spite of that and the fact that more than once you were beaten and tortured by the Republican forces because they wanted to they were trying to get information on where the Viet Cong were in and so forth. Then you held held out through that that later on some some local members of the Viet Cong suspected you of being an informer and almost killed you.

Yes. The torture came because we are so much about that we are ready to take the punishments First of all we work with young children and I’ve brought this. I’m going and I’ll parrot have right to it out if we did something wrong. When we sneak out and we do thing at nightfall the Viet Cong win. The sad Vietnamese Republican came and took us to tweak a game. We think he is good like a boss. So it’s just like a parrot. Somebody did have enough powder to punish you.

So are you willing to take the punishment for meadow from somebody that higher power so you can apheresis on that. The second these is because you go out and you do thing at night and they at the question about what you did the night before a mole you tell them you know more punishment you going to receive from them. And the Viet Cong at the same age my mother gave reminded me to don’t feel anything. But honestly the thing that we tell them is not going to do any good. We sing this song we say if you know

how to kill myself before I tell you anything and all of that pain that we’ve been programmed in are all my and if no do any good for him to tell him anyway. So the best thing to do it just stands still unless he torture you. Let’s put the elected sheriff on you. Let’s put the word snake in you. Let him get you he beat you. And only thing you can do it. Bake you pee and hope the day is over. And mojo just the and never get out there or they had been beaten so badly that they’d just die in the camps and the Viet Cong side.

We knew that even though me and my family we never did anything wrong to A again to Viet Cong but because they have to give everybody under control they are little people little group. They only know how to scare people by Q And on the front of us. And if they suspect that I am the betrayed them or to do something that is not approval by this then the only thing to do is

us out the up and of course through a group of people and then shot outside in front of everyone. So we don’t get to do anything but we don’t know what to do to be right and we don’t know what to do. You couldn’t be wrong. We get to live our life and hope that the day is over and the night is over. To survive to see the sun rays in the morning and sunset in the evening and that is how our village and as many villages around us live our life.

Again our guest this morning is lately Hayslip were talking with her from her home in California about her book when heaven and earth changed places about her growing up in Vietnam during the time of the Vietnam War. We are here and we’d be happy to have questions if you’d like to call in 3:33 w y l l toll free 800 to 2 to you while. Eventually you and your family. I guess it was you and your mother left the village where you were born. She had also gotten in trouble with with VC in the area and was almost killed. And so you and your mother went

to to Saigon where you had a sister living there and you lived there for you did go back and forth to your village a number of times. But you lived there. I guess mostly until you left Vietnam in 1970. What was Saigon like in those years.

Saigon like to me at that time. It get like now. The refugee foot landed in San Diego is no comparison to the way I was growing up in the countryside. And to Saigon City Saigon CD was so much about it. Like Heaven is a place where you can go on this weekend and your whole life your whole house. You can walk to classes. Go back and forth too fast. You can even see the people face and it’s too much noisy that you have to go to one

the two to hear what people are talking. Almost this thing and more than that and a lot of Madigan’s even in a beautiful Vietnamese Girsh I walk around a bar and I love to sing the dance in the movie. It is almost this thing. It can be so good. Never thought as hype and Llanos. And when me and my mother we get off playing and took a long drive to reality of homes. I could not believe that I

actually was in Saigon. You know like your like now how good night can fall from ode to heaven in the same time. But little by little I hike at one time. It’s too hot for people like myself my motto is to understand what Saigon is all about Saigon is somebody like very rich very wealthy very well educated get laid off people like me and my mother we never would survive a days in Saigon. But because my seat too high

what left home and went to Saigon. And so did my brought this out and my seat lawn I’ve been in Saigon. So we feel confident that we will survive if they can make it we can make it. In 1985 when the Madoc and came to Vietnam in March from March to October our village thought to become too much killing too much destroyed it only half an hour. And we knew that no way we can survive the Viet Cong side or the South Vietnamese animatic. So my flat and my Matu at

permission and from Viet Cong to let us get out of the village. After all what we went through they agreed that OK you can go but you have to go on a long time and far away from the law. So on the plane we can go as far as we can as Saigon and so on LIVE FROM Gila to Saigon is a big Jane and only thing we can do in Saigon is a BS given to the Greek people and most people will not hire people like us because we don’t know how to go for them. We don’t know how to

mop the floor for them. We don’t know how to make the best. We don’t know how to communicate with them so that they can understand it and so that’s why we’ve been homeless for so many days before we finally find a job and when we find a job it’s not easy. We have to be graying they bystanders and everything before we can fit in their family and the life from Saigon to me right now. At that moment I feel like I was in heaven even though I was homeless even though I was a very

sick child because I miss my homeland. I miss my father and my Vili’s best deal. Heaven to me.

In 1986 after having been away from Vietnam for a number of years he had the opportunity to go back and you got a chance to see your mother and brother and some other family members what. How was Vietnam different when when you went back. From the way it was when you left in 1970.

Well that it’s a question as you can see the title of the book. When heaven and earth get in that place it is. When I left my village to Saigon Delight’s from hell to heaven. I did ask why. Now that’s been living in the United States for 8 for 15 years. I went back to Saigon Saigon and it gets like a hill again. And how could I as plain to you and to earth. How am I feeling. What change and how I can see

this is one lifetime I’m talking about only 20 25 years of time and have been getting so much like this. And to go back to Saigon from San Diego it gets light again. My body sits in California but my soul’s been in look and feel my family my Rolley to the country side. It is beautiful. Growing is

Pootie the children so friendly the people it was so shocking to see just Maddock can say this and come back to visit with them. The question is why. Why did she come from heaven back to hell. But to me it’s no heaven no hell. It is the way this is the way it was planted 30 years ago. It’s from LA to Saigon the way it is today. From San Diego California to Saigon it good time. It’s put me back to where

below to fly what a mission to find what is really truly between heaven and hell between rich and poor between love compassion and forgiveness.

Mankind all of these things. It gave me a way of looking different than in life. If I can put everything on the poor side of Vietnam then Vietnam is always and it will be beautiful place for me if put in riches take full of love and compassion on a magic and sigh I own soul own ways and will be love just to Cancri between east and west between Vietnam and United States.

I am on both sides. I can be very rich in California I can be very poor in Vietnam. So when two first landed in podium NZD is from Saigon I feel like OK this is where my first life of gaining from LA to Saigon now began. Thought again. All from San Diego California back to Saigon.

And that is where my life had take a day off and change from 1986 when when you went back and had an opportunity again to see your mother and your brother do you did. Did they feel that somehow in leaving Vietnam and becoming a U.S. citizen that you had turned away from them more turned away from the values of the Vietnamese people and you or those who had come before you. Were they. What were their feelings about your having left.

To my mothers see and this all. You know my seat behind my seat the bar and some of my friend who survived the war live life right now in LA and in Danann Vietnam too poor to much suffering and hardship. She very happy for me that I happen to love the country. And you know my bed and my cell phone my brother Beaumarchais. First he never could accept that I married to his enemy married to people that he died so hard to forget. But

then he also has to see that if I stay in Vietnam what cannot be no more no less than most of the Vietnamese people live in poor countries. So we have to be Amish at first of course he did not accept me. He taught that I work for CIA the CIA send me back there so that I can get the info made and know what for him of awful for them. But I have to live with it now. And I told him about all the family over here. I’ve been

waiting a full six years. I don’t need to look and feel and see anybody that come back to Vietnam. I get one to see my mother and I went to see my brother and see it in my heart and especially my mother before she died. I really would Life’ll you not to see her the last time. And I have to understand that. And he sent me back to the family that do that I kept me because I loved them not because I wanted to spy on them.

We didn’t mention that when you left. You were married to an American and that was sort of how it is that you manage to leave the country. It was not an American serviceman but a civilian a man who was quite a bit older and you were who you met the one you were living in Saigon when he you had been involved with some some other man who didn’t really treat you very well when you met him and he asked you to marry him and then I’d say to you you know to go with him back to the United States. What were you feeling at that time especially when

he he told you that he wanted to marry you.

I feel very very lucky that it’s a big dream full almost every Vietnamese girl would like to have some American Mendus married them and brought them to you and I say the sad thing is I’m not deeply in love with my husband. He’s thirty five years older than myself. I thought enough to live in my old mothers and go in to Madigan when with the man that I don’t really love and look for the happiness in my heart but for my son

I’m not too much concerned about my life to be coming to the United States to escape from the war. But my sons I do not want him to come into his war. I don’t know how long it will be last. I don’t know what they’re going to come out of it. I don’t know who’s going to win the war and who can take over the country. And what’s happened if you know me and my son we never would make it. And so to be. Not only look how to take care of my mother and my ancestors but I

also have an obligation to take care of my son. And I said tomorrow to my husband to escape the country. It is not an easy situation. It’s not easy for me to leave my family and get this far get only know one person. My husband and that’s why I did not pull my mother about this. That is why my sister did not agree for me to marry to outsider to death and raise the dead. Not really happy for me because they knew that you know we

are Buddhists and married to a Catholic family. It’s Vietnamese people can not accept this. And so. But to me I was too young. I don’t really understand what the difference between Buddhists and capsulize. And I did not really understand what the different rays have to do with my application for my son and the man who loved me who well into taking care of me that I could and maybe someday I come back and see my mother and help her. And all these things. So I say gift to him from my heart. It’s a sense of Fae

a human being to my team happy to make my son better futures and maybe hope that someday I can help my mother. That’s why I accepted to marry him.

You have have three boys and I guess the oldest one is he is pretty old is he still in college or has he graduated from college.

He will restaurateurs in some ways.

OK. Have they expressed any interest in going to see Vietnam.

Oh I guess when Bear with me and let you lie. Oh yes. Oh I love them. He’s the oldest one is 22 years old now. And you know he’s remember Vietnam a little bit. And because I watched too many Vietnam story and documentary and movie he had an idea and he’s ready to accept Vietnam but the middle one who is will be 20 within weeks and the youngest one is really afraid. You know they thought that the Communists who did put the garment they had and shot them if they did do

anything wrong and so they’re very afraid to go to Vietnam but because to go in with me and on our delegates that is would get going. And can take it in who is really one to see what Vietnam is like. And also we travel with a group of TV crews from Iraq TV station so they feel confident to go when they get to Vietnam everything gay. They did not see any gun that did not see in the office so

they don’t know who they are. It’s to be one. And noticed they saw the beautiful countryside and the children and the people who you know everybody’s smiling at them and hug them and this on the only thing they did keep them made them very happy and very safe. The people the people how friendly and how you know Mahto welcome them coming back even totally strange just awful at them. Anything for nothing yet to make them happy. While in Vietnam. And that is that thing that they never can

understand. So now they want to go back. They want to go back there longer so that they can understand more about the culture.

We just have a couple of minutes left and I want to give you the opportunity to talk a little bit about the East meets West Foundation and the kinds of things that you have tried to do.

If Where found is an end goal is to help the Madigan people to understand all Cancri people and how to do that to invite them to join others to go back to Vietnam to see the Vietnamese people and the concrete. By doing that give an opportunity for the veteran who had been there before and Gary and frighting and hate for Vietnamese or people or whatever in his schooling. I hope that he

can go back there and say OK and I was in Vietnam 20 years ago at a shelter at a man with a gun. Now I want to go back to Vietnam is empty handed. It’s a thin guy to be with the people and give him an opportunity to review himself as a human being and a man who with a good heart and my win to my country wanted to a goal to his Vietnamese people to have a better life. Now the war is over. The Vietnamese people won him to come back to see them to visit with them help

them to rebuild that country. And if you have a heart and mind for the help and Vietnamese people then I would ask him to join us to go back to Vietnam and hopefully on this trip and heal the wounds of war can heal himself for the damage is Vietnam War have created in his body and his spear and on his side. He did it what our goal is so we tied the veteran back and built the planet. We get Finney’s our very first project in my village of La

A7 bathroom planet and Bill by Madigan veteran Well it and calm at the Vietnamese Republican Army and everybody in in and love the hen to build it clean it and we can have a next project in March we going to have much more to go on next year which was in Vietnam by Tim Madigan veteran and people and I understand that just to finish up here that the there will be a film based on your life and your book. Yes. Oliver Stone I have watched the film right. So

we can go to Vietnam and dry up the screenplay. Then I hope that that’s how we going to see him at in Vietnam and these gave dramatic and people began to see truly what it’s like to live in country where it’s war for 30 40 years. And also for people to understand about you know where we come from and how we can survive this war and keep the people began to understand more. It’s two sides to my you know take two sides of a war now it’s takes to side to heal the war no more.

Well we will have to leave it there. I want to thank you very much for talking with us. Your book is is very moving and I hope people will read it.

Oh thank you so much David.

Once again the excuse me the title of the book that we have been talking about is when heaven and earth changed places and it is published by Doubleday and the author is Les Lee Hayslip her last name is spelled h a y s l i p and it is out now in the bookstores and you might want to take a look at.