// This is a machine generated transcript. Please report any transcription errors to will-help@illinois.edu.

[00:00:00]
Brian Mackey: It's The 21st Show. I'm Brian Mackey. You're hearing "So What," released by the legendary jazz musician and composer Miles Davis in 1959. It's from his album "Kind of Blue," one of the best-selling jazz records of all time. 100 years ago on this day, May 26th, Miles Davis was born in Alton, Illinois. Raised nearby in East St. Louis, he would grow up to change the history of music with his innovative impromptu style. Back in 2020, we spoke with his son, Erin Davis, and Vince Wilburn Jr., who's a nephew of Miles and also served as a bandleader and drummer in the Miles Electric Band. We're revisiting that conversation for the next part of our program today. Because this is on tape, no calls, but you can always let us know what you thought. Our email address is talk@21stshow.org. Aaron, I want to start with you. Your, your father was born in Alton, Illinois, but grew up in East St. Louis. What did he tell you about his childhood? When, when and where did he find his love of music?

[00:01:15]
Erin Davis: When did he discover his love of music? I think early on, you know, I think his, you know, his parents wanted him to play music, his mom wanted him to play violin, right? Mhm. And, um, he, he said his dad overruled her. He got a trumpet.

[00:01:33]
Brian Mackey: Man, imagine how differently the world would be if he had taken up the violin instead of the trumpet. Um, so, so eventually he goes to the Juilliard School in New York City. Uh, Aaron, I, I wonder how did that, how did that time in his life help shape his music?

[00:01:47]
Erin Davis: Well, I mean, in my opinion, his that time in his life, you know, when he went to Juilliard, I mean, he — he really got into, like, some of the, the classical stuff, 'cause, you know, obviously they weren't teaching jazz back then, so he was just diving into, into, uh, all the charts and scores of all those great composers and like, seeing what they're doing from the inside out. And then I think when he got what he wanted, he's like, well, all the stuff I really wanna learn is down there with, with, uh, Diz and Bird, he was just getting more out of that. I mean, I, I watched something on YouTube last night where he was talking to Marcus Miller back in the '80s. On "Night Music," on David Sanborn's "Night Music" show. And, uh, he said, he said he wanted to quit every night with those guys, but obviously he was getting so much out of that, you know what I mean? Like, what, what did he say, uh, that he would, they played ahead and leave him up there.

[00:02:38]
Vince Wilburn Jr.: Yeah, yeah, one of his first gigs with, with Bird was they didn't have a trumpet player, this somebody couldn't make it, and so they said, well, Bird, who do you see who's gonna play trumpet tonight in your band? He pointed at Uncle Miles, and Uncle Miles was looking around like, who, me? It's in the documentary too.

[00:02:56]
Brian Mackey: Yeah, yeah, and people aren't familiar. Bird is, of course, Charlie Parker, the great saxophonist, and Diz, Dizzy Gillespie, um, and, and I think that's like, that's half his education in New York, right? So he spends the days in Juilliard, but then at night he's playing with these jazz legends. Yeah,

[00:03:11]
Vince Wilburn Jr.: yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, yeah, hanging out.

[00:03:14]
Brian Mackey: So from, from cool jazz to bebop to hard bop jazz, Miles, I think his compositions, his trumpet playing and orchestral arrangements were legendary. And Vince, I wonder what was it like to, to play music with your uncle?

[00:03:26]
Vince Wilburn Jr.: I refer to it as Miles Davis University. You just had to be on your toes, you know, every night. I mean, even though we had a set list, it would be variations in the, in the, in the setlist every night because what he did, he would listen to the, to the concerts. We had, he had board tapes, cassettes from the, uh, from the house, the mixer, and he would critique and, and change things and he'd have us come up to his room. And he'd add or take away, um, things he heard in his head and then we'd try it the next night. So that's how the, the, uh, the tour developed, you know, and the songs would take shape and, and move around and like what did Lenny say, an amoeba, you know. But, um, he had that knack for knowing and he would know what the audience, how to shift the concert, shift the songs during the concerts, you know, cut them off, go to the next song, put something else in, change the set list. It was amazing.

[00:04:21]
Brian Mackey: As we heard Vince refer to, there was a PBS documentary a few years ago called "Miles Davis: Birth of the Cool." Let's take a listen to what Herbie Hancock said about working with Miles.

[00:04:33]
Herbie Hancock: Miles wanted us to live on the stage in front of the people, creating in front of the people. In other words, don't lean on what you know. What he was looking for is the stuff that you don't know.

[00:04:49]
Brian Mackey: Again, Herbie Hancock in a clip from "Miles Davis: Birth of the Cool," a documentary that aired on PBS a few years ago. Let me just say it's The 21st Show. On this, the 100th anniversary of Davis's birth in Illinois, we're revisiting a conversation we had on the program. Back in 2020, my guests were his son Erin Davis and his nephew and bandleader, Vince Wilburn Jr. Vince, you were, you were a drummer in his band. Do you, do you have any distinct memories of crowd reaction to his playing?

[00:05:20]
Vince Wilburn Jr.: Just when he would walk on stage, everybody would, you know, it was, it was like you could hear it, you could feel it. And, and when you could really kind of vibe it. From the first downbeat, the second song was a ballad, you know, it's a blues. So when you can hear the muted quietness of the, of the audience, it was like they were in a trance. And, and, and when he had a wireless, so everywhere on stage he would go on stage, you know, the, the audiences, the faces would shift and follow him, like the Pied Piper, you know, it's like, it was, it was, it was, it was amazing to see. That Uncle Miles would have a spell, you know, so to speak, over the audience. You know, that was incredible. Then I remember one concert at Giants Stadium, it was, uh, uh, Amnesty [International's Live Aid]. I think it was about 70,000 people at Giants Stadium. And, and, you know, it's like a sea of people at Giants Stadium and Uncle Miles had a, you know, had the, everybody, all, all, everybody was focused on him, you know, it was just, it's, I mean, it was, it was a, it was just a numerous concerts and Eric can attest to this. Absolutely. Everywhere all over the world, you know, uh, you know, he, he was, he had that magic, that aura.

[00:06:48]
Brian Mackey: Miles Davis was not shy about talking about the black experience in America and around the world. And we're going to listen to an excerpt from "60 Minutes" about an exchange he had with a teacher at Juilliard when she tried to explain the connection between blacks and blues music.

[00:07:03]
Miles Davis: I saw a student teacher of mine like that in Juilliard. She started talking about, well, you know, black people [suffered] at night and they just, and they say that's where the blues came from. So I raised my hand and I said, listen. My father's rich, my mom is good looking. And I can play the blues. I never suffered and don't intend to suffer.

[00:07:32]
Brian Mackey: That was Miles Davis on "60 Minutes" in 1959. Davis was beaten by a New York police officer who accused him of loitering in front of the jazz club he was performing at the same night. Pictures of him in bloody clothes are on the internet, and in an interview with Dick Cavett in 1986, Davis talked about being stopped in his expensive cars weekly by police officers who thought he'd stolen them. Aaron, I, I wonder, despite your father being a world superstar, he still dealt with discrimination and racism. Can you talk about what toll that took on him? And, and I wonder what, what do you think your father being so open about his experiences has to teach the world about the broader black experience?

[00:08:11]
Erin Davis: Well, I mean, I think he's, he's gone through more than enough of that kind of stuff, you know, when he was younger and, and, and even when he was, when he was older sometimes. And I think when he, when he realized that you could go to Europe and get treated like an artist, instead of just a black musician, you know, or a black man. You know, it was a, it was a whole new experience and once you get back to America and you have to go through this all again, I think, you know, I think that was probably the hardest part about it. It's like realizing that there is, there are people who see things differently and but they're just not here. They're not here, you know. And, um, you know, with me, he always was, we always, we, that we did talk about, he, you know, he was always making sure that I, I was, uh, aware of what, what I, what I should be doing, how I, you know, how I should be doing it, how I should, uh, what I can expect from, uh, you know, the police at times and things like that.

[00:09:11]
Brian Mackey: You know, and I was so, I was interested in the documentary pretty early on, I think. Quincy Jones talks about the evolution of the music that, that, uh, you know, we were talking about Bird, Charlie Parker and, and Dizzy Gillespie and, and Miles, that jazz was evolving in the way it was as sort of a reaction away from and against the, the minstrelsy-type music and, you know, no smiling and laughing and no grinning, no dancing, no entertaining. That's what Quincy Jones said in the documentary. Can you talk about that, how that influenced the music, that sort of anti-reaction or reaction to what had come before?

[00:09:45]
Erin Davis: You know, he really, really frowned on that minstrel-type stuff, man, and, um, you know, that, that's probably, um, it's not something I had to grow up with, so I don't really, uh, can't really speak on what that feels like, but, you know, just from the stuff I saw in the documentary. You know, that must have been rough, you know, you're trying to get, you're trying to get your, uh, your ideas across musically. And you're trying to, and you're, and you're thinking on the same level as the [Strazinsky], or, I'm sorry, Stravinsky. Or, uh, you know, whoever, you know, whoever you wanna name, and you gotta deal with this minstrel stuff, you know, and it's like, you know, you don't get taken as seriously that way, you know, you know what I mean? It's just, I, I'm glad I didn't have to come up with that, man.

[00:10:31]
Brian Mackey: And, and Vince, in, in the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s, jazz's popularity, at least as a sort of a mass popular form of music, is, is lessening. Miles Davis's innovation keeps going, and you're a bandleader in the Miles Electric Band. When you're playing with them, can you talk about — with him, when you're playing with him — how did he adapt as music fans turned to rock and disco and other forms of popular music?

[00:10:55]
Vince Wilburn Jr.: Well, you gotta figure the way his mind worked. He didn't want, he, he was always evolving, so he wasn't gonna play "Stella by Starlight" in 1970, you know, or "Bye Bye Blackbird," you know. Um, he, when the times changed, he changed, but he was ahead of the curve, you know. Um, always ahead of the curve, always thinking about advancing the music, you know, or if there was a, it was, if there was a ballad or, or, or, uh, uh, uh, uh, you know, he wanted his interpretation of "Human Nature," his interpretation of "Time After Time," uh, uh, uh, "Someday My Prince Will Come," you know, you know, I, I, I, I just use those three songs, but his, his mind was always pushing the music. So I, I think Herbie Hancock's first time he ever played an electric piano was with Uncle Miles, you know, he didn't know, you know, they didn't never, they never saw an electric piano before. But it's not surprising because that's the way his mind worked, and, and, and he, he wanted to, he, he called his music social music, so he was trying to always change and always evolve and, and stay a step ahead of the curve. I just this, that was just Miles, you know. He didn't set out to be a rock musician, he didn't set out to be, you know, he, he wanted, he wanted his music to reach as many, you know, as many people as, as possibly as he possibly could, and that's what happened.

[00:12:28]
Brian Mackey: And Vince, what do you think Miles would think of today's music?

[00:12:34]
Vince Wilburn Jr.: I don't know what you think 'cause, you know, some things he would probably dig and some things he wouldn't, you know.

[00:12:40]
Erin Davis: Yeah, I mean there's always gonna be somebody that he's gonna be like, oh, you gotta hear this. But I mean the vast majority of the stuff that's on the radio has been played for the last 40 years, so I don't think anything is, there's not gonna be too much new stuff that he's gonna be excited about on the, on the radio, but there'll be somebody out there, sure, yeah, somebody doing something. I mean, I, I don't wanna like start saying who I think he would like, but I mean I know that there's definitely some acts out there.

[00:13:05]
Vince Wilburn Jr.: Aaron, tell the story about, about, uh, the drummer when you were looking at TV. And the drummer, he thought he, thought he was cool. Oh, I, I think that's cool.

[00:13:14]
Erin Davis: I was watching, this is like back in the '80s, you know, I was watching, uh, MTV. And I think it was a, a Slayer video was on, and he came down and he, and I was like, oh, you're gonna hate this, and I, and he walked by and he kind of looked at it for a second. And he said, damn, the drummer's really laying it down, huh? And he just walked away.

[00:13:35]
Brian Mackey: That's pretty cool. Miles Davis and Slayer. I don't think, uh, I don't think people would have expected

[00:13:40]
Vince Wilburn Jr.: that. You know, he kept an open mind, you know. Yeah,

[00:13:44]
Brian Mackey: so I, I, we're coming to the end of our conversation here, just about a minute left. Aaron, I wonder, do you, do you have a, a favorite work by your father?

[00:13:51]
Erin Davis: Oh, well, I mean, it's funny you say that because, you know, it usually changes, uh, week by week or whatever, and this week it's been, um, it's, we, we were, we've been looking at a lot of his music, uh, you know, looking at celebrating, you know, his birthday today. And, um, for me today, my favorite track right now is called "Sivad" from "Live Evil." It's just, it's an amazing live track with Michael Henderson on bass and it's just, it's killing, killing.

[00:14:39]
Brian Mackey: And Vince, same question to you. What's your favorite work by your uncle and bandmate Miles Davis?

[00:14:45]
Vince Wilburn Jr.: Well, OK, so that's, you can't have a favorite. Well, 3 favorites. We just got a, we just received a plaque for "Kind of Blue." [5] million now. So that's the largest jazz record of all time. So that's still a go-to. But like, I've got, I agree with my cousin, "Agartha," you know. That's, that was recorded in Japan with Mike and those guys. That, that's like, woof, you know. And then "Seven Steps to Heaven" 'cause I was talking to Ron Carter the other day and we were talking about that. So I, I have 3 that I, that I rotate like, like, like meditation every morning, you know, and then I get on with my day. So sorry, I don't have 1.

[00:15:44]
Brian Mackey: Fair enough, fair enough.

[00:15:46]
Vince Wilburn Jr.: That's my 3 go-to's.

[00:15:48]
Brian Mackey: That was Vince Wilburn Jr., nephew, drummer, and bandleader of the Miles Electric Band. We also heard from Erin Davis, son of the legendary musician Miles. We originally spoke with them back in 2020. We're revisiting that conversation today on the 100th anniversary of his birth. Coming up, we'll continue our tribute to Miles Davis with another conversation from our archives. We'll hear about where he grew up in Illinois and also from a music professor who talks about how young people are finding a connection to his music. We'll take you to break with another one of his songs. This is Davis performing the Wayne Shorter piece "Footprints" off the 1967 album "Miles Smiles." It's The 21st Show. Stay with us.

It's The 21st Show. I'm Brian Mackey, and this is "Milestones," a composition by Miles Davis. He's, of course, performing trumpet, joined by other jazz greats, Cannonball Adderley on alto sax and John Coltrane on tenor. Davis was born on this day, May 26th, 100 years ago in 1926. That was in Alton, Illinois. He grew up nearby in East St. Louis. Earlier on the show we heard from his son and nephew about his musical legacy. For the rest of the program, [we'll hear] two more perspectives. Lauren Parks is the president of the House of Miles in East St. Louis. She oversaw the renovation of Miles Davis's boyhood home, which has attracted people from around the world. Also, Tammy Kernodle of Miami University in Oxford, Ohio. Her work has focused on classical and popular African American music, jazz, and more. And she has a Ph.D. in music history from the Ohio State University. In the prior segment, I mentioned that PBS documentary, "Miles Davis: Birth of the Cool." Tammy appeared in that. We originally spoke with Lauren and Tammy back in 2020 on the 94th anniversary of Davis's birth. With that in mind, no calls for this part of the show, but you can always let us know what you thought. Our email address is talk@21stshow.org. Professor Kernodle, in what ways would you say that Miles Davis' music was transformative?

[00:19:24]
Tammy Kernodle: I think Miles really helped stretch the definition of the word jazz, uh, and shifted it beyond this kind of public consumer culture, uh, to a different level of intellectual engagement, you know, he was perhaps one of the most experimental, um, most creative voices to come out of this idiom that we, uh, signify as jazz, you know, um, constantly shifting. Uh, and constantly willing to take creative chances that many of his peers were unable to take.

[00:20:05]
Brian Mackey: Lauren Parks, I'd like to bring you into the conversation now. If we were to drive up to 1701 Kansas Avenue in East St. Louis, I wonder, would we hear and see Miles Davis as soon as we pull up to the House of Miles?

[00:20:18]
Lauren Parks: Absolutely. The, the, the energy greets you as you pull up and that's interesting that you say that, Brian, because we've been told that by numerous visitors. Um, we had a young man and his family drive from Louisiana and we did not know they were coming and we just happened to be, we were working out in the yard and, and he pulled up, got out of his family's car. And he began playing trumpet, the trumpet right in front of the house, and his dad said there was no way that we could take our vacation without stopping by and feeling the spirit of Miles Davis and not have my son play on the very site where Miles grew up. And so that was an incredible testament. Um, for us and how this project has motivated, has inspired, um, and has built this huge community nationally and internationally. And that is what keeps us going and keeps us moving and we are just so honored to be a part of preserving such a rich, rich legacy and history. Um, of Miles Davis and the East St. Louis community.

[00:21:53]
Brian Mackey: What was East St. Louis like when a young Miles Davis was growing up there?

[00:21:58]
Lauren Parks: During the time where Miles grew up, East St. Louis was a very hustling and bustling industry town. Um, there were a lot of businesses there in town, of course, including his father's dental practice, um, which was on 15th and Broadway, which was not far from 17th [and] Kansas where he grew up. And so East St. Louis was a very thriving community and East St. Louis is rebuilding, in the process of rebuilding, and that is what makes this project inspiring to be a part of the resurgence and the rebuilding of East St. Louis.

[00:22:44]
Brian Mackey: If you're just joining us, this is The 21st Show. Today we're honoring Miles Davis. He was born 100 years ago today right here in Illinois. We're revisiting a conversation we first aired in 2020. Our guests were Lauren Parks, president of the House of Miles in East St. Louis, his childhood home, which is now a museum, and Dr. Tammy Kernodle, music professor at Miami University in Ohio. Professor Kernodle, Miles Davis' music became really popular in the 1950s as African Americans and the civil rights movement were starting to percolate. Can you describe what he and his music represented to Black people at that time?

[00:23:23]
Tammy Kernodle: I think it embodied the, the type of radical transgressiveness that we ascribe with the civil rights movement. You know, Miles was never a, a very open supporter of the movement, but he embodied much of what the movement represented, you know, the, um, the resistance to play up to the crowd, um, his way of envisioning himself as a serious artist, um, as a composer, as an intellectual, the way that he dressed, all that was a part of, you know, his personification as a Black man. [It] really mirrored what was the rhetoric, the ideology, the progressive politics that fueled the civil rights movement. And so, you know, while we don't oftentimes associate him with the civil rights movement in the way that we associate, uh, Nina Simone or Charles Mingus or a Thelonious Monk who actually performed in some of the benefits, benefit concerts that helped fuel the direct action campaigns of the South. Uh, in many ways, Miles was embodying in a different space because of the way that his music was engaged with by white middle America. In a place of creating a different reading or context of blackness.

[00:24:55]
Brian Mackey: And, and Professor Kernodle at Miami University, you teach about black music, including hip-hop and other popular forms of current music. And I, I, I wonder, other than your jazz students, do, do young people today know who Miles Davis is and, and, and how do they react to his music when you play it?

[00:25:13]
Tammy Kernodle: Yeah, very much they react. I mean, I, I am oftentimes struck by the students who will come into class and they will have Miles Davis and all these iconic Black musicians on T-shirts or items of clothing, and when you ask them, you know, uh, you know, are you just wearing that for a fashion statement? Oftentimes they will reveal to you that they don't know, there's been a study of the life, there's been a study of the music, and Miles in many ways, particularly because he kept experimenting. Um, and, and shifting jazz into contexts that aligned it with other forms of popular music, especially from the 1970s on, you know, many of them became connected with Miles through, like, "Bitches Brew" or, uh, or even through, you know, by way of Herbie Hancock have come into Miles, you know, so there's a different level of engagement. Uh, and, and acclamation and introduction to him. So, you know, we talk about Miles in my history of hip-hop class, uh, because we talk about the, the level of experimentation he was engaged in in the latter part of his life, you know, and, and the last album that he was working on prior to his death, "Doo-Bop." And, and what did that mean in terms of, of creating a different instrumental, uh, hip-hop aesthetic, right? You know, 'cause we only wanna center hip-hop in the rap aesthetic. Um, so, you know, he's, he's an iconic figure and an iconic musical voice that can be integrated in so many different discussions.

[00:27:00]
Brian Mackey: Yeah, you're speaking to me there directly because "Bitches Brew" from, which, for people aren't familiar, is an album [that] came out in 1970, has a lot of electric elements. That was my first, sort of my way into Miles Davis's music. Uh, you know, and as we're talking about young people, and we just have unfortunately a couple of minutes left in our conversation, but, but Lauren, there at the House of Miles in East St. Louis, part of the goal is to connect young people with the arts and I understand, before the pandemic, at least the building was a community center of sorts. Can you tell us about some of the activities there?

[00:27:30]
Lauren Parks: Yes, we offer numerous educational enrichment opportunities as well as tours, of course, by appointment. We offer the arts. We have a Movement with Miles which incorporates healthy living. That's one aspect of Miles that many may or may not know, that he enjoyed boxing. So we incorporate healthy living with our students as well.

[00:27:59]
Brian Mackey: I want to end just with sort of a reflection on, on Davis's role in each of your lives. Professor Kernodle, you're a musicologist, but I understand you were not allowed to listen to jazz in your childhood home. I wonder if you can talk, just again, briefly, we're almost out of time, but when did you first hear Miles Davis and how did it change your life?

[00:28:19]
Tammy Kernodle: I first heard Miles when I was in college, you know, I grew up in a religious home. And ironically, you know, I listened to a lot of funk and soul, uh, country and gospel, but my father in particular, uh, was, had a, you know, disposition against blues and jazz. He saw those as the devil's music and never quite understood that, uh, and I really didn't understand it after I, I was surprised to find an 8-track tape of "Kind of Blue" in the basement of my parents' home where they had their record collection. I oftentimes ascribe that to probably my mother and not my father, and I will have to ask her about that one

[00:29:05]
Brian Mackey: day. And Lauren, last question to you, do you have a favorite work by Miles Davis?

[00:29:10]
Lauren Parks: Yes, "It Never Entered My Mind." That is one of the most soul-stirring, uh, songs I've ever heard, so I would say of course it's hard to pick a favorite, but that's definitely the top five for me. Let me say that because you know Miles transcends various decades and so his music evolved. And so, so from anywhere from "It Never Entered My Mind" to "Doo-Bop," you know, our students love that song and they love to dance and create dance moves off that song. So I have numerous favorites, but "It Never Entered My Mind" is definitely in my top five.

[00:30:25]
Brian Mackey: That was Lauren Parks, president of the House of Miles in East St. Louis, the childhood home of Miles Davis. Also with us was Miami University musicology professor Tammy Kernodle. We originally spoke with [her] in 2020 and are revisiting that conversation today, the 100th anniversary of Miles' birth. That is it for our program. The 21st Show is produced by Christine Hatfield and Jose Zepeda. Our digital producer is Kulsoom Khan. Technical direction and engineering comes from Jason Croft and Steve Morck, and Reginald Hardwick, who produced the Miles conversation, is our news director. Special thanks to Miles Davis for the music at the end of the show today. The 21st Show is a production of Illinois Public Media. I'm Brian Mackey. Thanks for listening. We'll talk with you again tomorrow.